Author Topic: DSL 2.2 Complete Edition - Clickbeetle's Response  (Read 4622 times)

Offline 09090901

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Re: DSL 2.2 Complete Edition - Clickbeetle's Response
« Reply #20 on: July 01, 2018, 05:30:52 PM »
Hot take: Typhoon teeth are a bigger problem then mechavore disks (at least at HW level) and should be first in line to get a nerf

Is it the large ones, small ones, or both?

Also the Typhoon teeth have almost the exact same stats as the DSL teeth.  Are those overpowered too?

If so, I suspect the problem lies in the x2 stat multiplier for components with one-dimensional normals.  The teeth actually have 1.5-D normals and this may make a bigger difference than I thought.
Here's what I say - cheatbot2 the existing Minon, Mechavore and Typhoon Teeth. Put 'em in a box, lock 'em away, give 'em a slight graphical tweak so people know they're the cheatbot2 variants. Then, make newer, non-cheatbot2 versions of those components, with more balanced stats - a 1.5X multiplier instead of a 2X would be a good start.
Hot take: Typhoon teeth are a bigger problem then mechavore disks (at least at HW level) and should be first in line to get a nerf
The teeth actually have 1.5-D normals
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Re: DSL 2.2 Complete Edition - Clickbeetle's Response
« Reply #21 on: July 01, 2018, 05:35:47 PM »
Hot take: Typhoon teeth are a bigger problem then mechavore disks (at least at HW level) and should be first in line to get a nerf

Is it the large ones, small ones, or both?

Also the Typhoon teeth have almost the exact same stats as the DSL teeth.  Are those overpowered too?

If so, I suspect the problem lies in the x2 stat multiplier for components with one-dimensional normals.  The teeth actually have 1.5-D normals and this may make a bigger difference than I thought.
Here's what I say - cheatbot2 the existing Minon, Mechavore and Typhoon Teeth. Put 'em in a box, lock 'em away, give 'em a slight graphical tweak so people know they're the cheatbot2 variants. Then, make newer, non-cheatbot2 versions of those components, with more balanced stats - a 1.5X multiplier instead of a 2X would be a good start.
Hot take: Typhoon teeth are a bigger problem then mechavore disks (at least at HW level) and should be first in line to get a nerf
The teeth actually have 1.5-D normals

Yes, but a 2X multiplier on those 1.5-D normals... I believe? I dunno, my brain might be derping... If 1.5x is still too OP, 1.25X.


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Offline Clickbeetle

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Re: DSL 2.2 Complete Edition - Clickbeetle's Response
« Reply #22 on: July 01, 2018, 06:20:54 PM »
Hot take: Typhoon teeth are a bigger problem then mechavore disks (at least at HW level) and should be first in line to get a nerf

Is it the large ones, small ones, or both?

Also the Typhoon teeth have almost the exact same stats as the DSL teeth.  Are those overpowered too?

If so, I suspect the problem lies in the x2 stat multiplier for components with one-dimensional normals.  The teeth actually have 1.5-D normals and this may make a bigger difference than I thought.
The real issues with them are that they're pretty easy to spam even without sacrificing in other areas, plus they have a pretty nice collision model, and a decent looking, versatile appearance which can fit with many designs, while most of the alternatives such as the DSL teeth look kinda ugly in many applications, or don't have as good of a collision mesh. As a result of all of that you end up seeing bots with like 15+ typhoon teeth and rarely do you see bots, especially effective ones, with anything else.

Sooo... it's more that people just prefer them for aesthetic reasons and ease of placement?  That doesn't sound like a nerf is the answer.

Do you have any specific examples of alternatives with "bad" collision mesh?  Would "fixing" these help?

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Re: DSL 2.2 Complete Edition - Clickbeetle's Response
« Reply #23 on: July 01, 2018, 06:21:41 PM »
Hot take: Typhoon teeth are a bigger problem then mechavore disks (at least at HW level) and should be first in line to get a nerf

Is it the large ones, small ones, or both?

Also the Typhoon teeth have almost the exact same stats as the DSL teeth.  Are those overpowered too?

If so, I suspect the problem lies in the x2 stat multiplier for components with one-dimensional normals.  The teeth actually have 1.5-D normals and this may make a bigger difference than I thought.
The real issues with them are that they're pretty easy to spam even without sacrificing in other areas, plus they have a pretty nice collision model, and a decent looking, versatile appearance which can fit with many designs, while most of the alternatives such as the DSL teeth look kinda ugly in many applications, or don't have as good of a collision mesh. As a result of all of that you end up seeing bots with like 15+ typhoon teeth and rarely do you see bots, especially effective ones, with anything else.

Sooo... it's more that people just prefer them for aesthetic reasons and ease of placement?  That doesn't sound like a nerf is the answer.

Do you have any specific examples of alternatives with "bad" collision mesh?  Would "fixing" these help?
Not just that, but that's an additional issue on top of the balancing problems that they also have.
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Re: DSL 2.2 Complete Edition - Clickbeetle's Response
« Reply #24 on: July 01, 2018, 06:28:45 PM »
If it was just ease of use and aesthetic choices, that'd be fine, but it's that combined with their ridiculous stats that makes it a problem. It's like if Large Beater Bars had double the DPS they have now.


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Offline 09090901

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Re: DSL 2.2 Complete Edition - Clickbeetle's Response
« Reply #25 on: July 01, 2018, 06:29:36 PM »
If it was just ease of use and aesthetic choices, that'd be fine, but it's that combined with their ridiculous stats that makes it a problem. It's like if Large Beater Bars had double the DPS they have now.
So where do you you rank the 22kg ripping teeth with 720dp then?
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Re: DSL 2.2 Complete Edition - Clickbeetle's Response
« Reply #26 on: July 01, 2018, 07:03:20 PM »
Hot take: Typhoon teeth are a bigger problem then mechavore disks (at least at HW level) and should be first in line to get a nerf

Is it the large ones, small ones, or both?

Also the Typhoon teeth have almost the exact same stats as the DSL teeth.  Are those overpowered too?

If so, I suspect the problem lies in the x2 stat multiplier for components with one-dimensional normals.  The teeth actually have 1.5-D normals and this may make a bigger difference than I thought.

Sticking with what I said before - Minion Disc, Mechavore Disc and Typhoon Teeth are all problems, because of how easily they can be used, abused and manipulated. Typhoon Teeth are too easy to spam, while Mechavore discs and Minion Discs give absolutely no reason to make your own discs. You'd have the exact same problem if you made a Tombstone or Carbide replica - the only way to make those robots true to life is to make their components OP, therefore throwing the whole game balance out of whack.

Here's what I say - cheatbot2 the existing Minon, Mechavore and Typhoon Teeth. Put 'em in a box, lock 'em away, give 'em a slight graphical tweak so people know they're the cheatbot2 variants. Then, make newer, non-cheatbot2 versions of those components, with more balanced stats - a 1.5X multiplier instead of a 2X would be a good start. Then, from here on out, any new reps that get made have CB2 and Non-CB2 variants, with CB2 variants being balanced according to the actual robot's power, and the Non-CB2 being balanced according to DSL-S. I think that'd sort things out - and sure, it'd make CB2 messy, but honestly, DSL CB2 has always been messy.
So, how about the flatmotor?

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Re: DSL 2.2 Complete Edition - Clickbeetle's Response
« Reply #27 on: July 01, 2018, 07:07:43 PM »
So, how about the flatmotor?

Flatmotor is useful in things such as very light weightclasses and compact drum spinners. Idk if it needs to be changed.
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Re: DSL 2.2 Complete Edition - Clickbeetle's Response
« Reply #28 on: July 01, 2018, 07:17:18 PM »
So, how about the flatmotor?

Flatmotor is useful in things such as very light weightclasses and compact drum spinners. Idk if it needs to be changed.

I suggest increasing the weight of the current one as this makes low weight classes use the 'slow' version
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Re: DSL 2.2 Complete Edition - Clickbeetle's Response
« Reply #29 on: July 01, 2018, 07:37:29 PM »
If it was just ease of use and aesthetic choices, that'd be fine, but it's that combined with their ridiculous stats that makes it a problem. It's like if Large Beater Bars had double the DPS they have now.
So where do you you rank the 22kg ripping teeth with 720dp then?

I'd say they're just on the cusp of being a problem, but their lack of ease of use prevents them from being used in DSL-IRL without looking hella goofy. That, and the normals are weirder than the Typhoons.

Hot take: Typhoon teeth are a bigger problem then mechavore disks (at least at HW level) and should be first in line to get a nerf

Is it the large ones, small ones, or both?

Also the Typhoon teeth have almost the exact same stats as the DSL teeth.  Are those overpowered too?

If so, I suspect the problem lies in the x2 stat multiplier for components with one-dimensional normals.  The teeth actually have 1.5-D normals and this may make a bigger difference than I thought.

Sticking with what I said before - Minion Disc, Mechavore Disc and Typhoon Teeth are all problems, because of how easily they can be used, abused and manipulated. Typhoon Teeth are too easy to spam, while Mechavore discs and Minion Discs give absolutely no reason to make your own discs. You'd have the exact same problem if you made a Tombstone or Carbide replica - the only way to make those robots true to life is to make their components OP, therefore throwing the whole game balance out of whack.

Here's what I say - cheatbot2 the existing Minon, Mechavore and Typhoon Teeth. Put 'em in a box, lock 'em away, give 'em a slight graphical tweak so people know they're the cheatbot2 variants. Then, make newer, non-cheatbot2 versions of those components, with more balanced stats - a 1.5X multiplier instead of a 2X would be a good start. Then, from here on out, any new reps that get made have CB2 and Non-CB2 variants, with CB2 variants being balanced according to the actual robot's power, and the Non-CB2 being balanced according to DSL-S. I think that'd sort things out - and sure, it'd make CB2 messy, but honestly, DSL CB2 has always been messy.
So, how about the flatmotor?

Flatmotor should stay CB2. There's no way a motor that small would be able to chuck out the horsepower it offers.


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Re: DSL 2.2 Complete Edition - Clickbeetle's Response
« Reply #30 on: July 01, 2018, 07:40:40 PM »
Flatmotor should stay CB2. There's no way a motor that small would be able to chuck out the horsepower it offers.
While I agree that the flat should be CB2 (and I'd even go further personally in that I think tournament hosts should stop accepting bots that use it) for the sake of balance, brushless motors exist IRL and kick out buttloads of power at small sizes and low weights.
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Re: DSL 2.2 Complete Edition - Clickbeetle's Response
« Reply #31 on: July 01, 2018, 08:35:21 PM »
Other motors should be buffed to compete with the flat motor, the flat motor shouldn't be nerfed. And not just in power, the collision meshes of all DSL spin motors are stupidly big and awkward to use. I think Ironforge does well in this regard, and we should look to it for what it did right.
also lol at most toxic guy around calling others out on this sh**
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Re: DSL 2.2 Complete Edition - Clickbeetle's Response
« Reply #32 on: July 02, 2018, 06:21:04 AM »
Other motors should be buffed to compete with the flat motor, the flat motor shouldn't be nerfed. And not just in power, the collision meshes of all DSL spin motors are stupidly big and awkward to use. I think Ironforge does well in this regard, and we should look to it for what it did right.

I don't mind giving this a shot. What motors're problem areas, in your opinion? (I'm on about the collision meshes, not the stats.)


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Re: DSL 2.2 Complete Edition - Clickbeetle's Response
« Reply #33 on: July 02, 2018, 06:44:59 AM »
Off the top of my head, the worst is the etek, it's so massive, thick and hard to use compared to its effectiveness. Close behind is the dual perm. The 6mag and to a lesser extent 4mag are too big to use in most designs too, they're limited to generic bar HS or ring spinners; horizontal spinners where the bot is built around the weapon motor. I think the perms could do with a small size downgrade too, and in an ideal case putting a belt drive option onto all existing weapon (and maybe at some point chain drive? idk just spitballing here) motors.
also lol at most toxic guy around calling others out on this sh**
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Re: DSL 2.2 Complete Edition - Clickbeetle's Response
« Reply #34 on: July 02, 2018, 09:06:33 AM »
You could make the flatmotor non-cb2, if you made the power really low. Never used it, but this would make it like real brushless motors.
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Re: DSL 2.2 Complete Edition - Clickbeetle's Response
« Reply #35 on: July 02, 2018, 09:12:51 AM »
Right. Here's my personal conclusion:

There's two conflicting schools of thought here - the DSL-S builder, and the DSL-IRL builder. There'd be too much upkeep involved in having both meta's be their own separate mod packs. DSL-IRL originally started off as a spinoff of DSL-S, but has reached a point now where it dwarfs it by a factor of 5. Therefore, to keep the most users satisfied, it would be best to steer DSL as a mod in the direction of IRL. Yes, this will completely, radically change what we know as DSL-S - but, for the sake of keeping 'em happy... It's what's needed.


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Re: DSL 2.2 Complete Edition - Clickbeetle's Response
« Reply #36 on: July 02, 2018, 09:15:04 AM »
Right. Here's my personal conclusion:

There's two conflicting schools of thought here - the DSL-S builder, and the DSL-IRL builder. There'd be too much upkeep involved in having both meta's be their own separate mod packs. DSL-IRL originally started off as a spinoff of DSL-S, but has reached a point now where it dwarfs it by a factor of 5. Therefore, to keep the most users satisfied, it would be best to steer DSL as a mod in the direction of IRL. Yes, this will completely, radically change what we know as DSL-S - but, for the sake of keeping 'em happy... It's what's needed.


Separate mod.
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Offline superbot13

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Re: DSL 2.2 Complete Edition - Clickbeetle's Response
« Reply #37 on: July 02, 2018, 03:02:50 PM »
Ban dsl-s. Problem solved

Nobody plays it anyway
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Re: DSL 2.2 Complete Edition - Clickbeetle's Response
« Reply #38 on: July 02, 2018, 03:06:03 PM »
Ban dsl-s. Problem solved

Nobody plays it anyway

yes officer this comment right here
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Re: DSL 2.2 Complete Edition - Clickbeetle's Response
« Reply #39 on: July 02, 2018, 03:12:11 PM »
Right. Here's my personal conclusion:

There's two conflicting schools of thought here - the DSL-S builder, and the DSL-IRL builder. There'd be too much upkeep involved in having both meta's be their own separate mod packs. DSL-IRL originally started off as a spinoff of DSL-S, but has reached a point now where it dwarfs it by a factor of 5. Therefore, to keep the most users satisfied, it would be best to steer DSL as a mod in the direction of IRL. Yes, this will completely, radically change what we know as DSL-S - but, for the sake of keeping 'em happy... It's what's needed.


Separate mod.
We already got a separate mod for standard building. It's called Ironforge, look it up.