Author Topic: Did Advanced Stacking/Hax Mode/EXO slow the idea to further improve bots  (Read 1795 times)

Offline KOS

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Oh boy out of actual nowhere KOS is using what little brain power he has to construct a discussion on a delicate subject which could make no sense

First post in a while, been curious about this for a long time now but I wanted to discuss this with the stock community since I left to see everyone's thoughts. This will probably only be relevant to people who love competitive building (Or no one because I could be talking complete nonsense as per)(I may (will) be rusty bringing up terms its been like 3-4 years which also could mean I missed out on some rule changes etc)

Ever since I started RA2 stock, I was always looking up to the builders who participated in BBEANS etc, on how they used glitches to increase the efficiency of their bots to beat others, and working towards the best possible bot. I developed the mindset that if any weight could be saved to improve the bot, then it should be done. As time passed and I posted here I found ways to add more weapons/drives etc to my bots using better extender setups and such, but as time goes on those setups reach a wall, and the way to overcome that wall was to free up weight, by having the patience to exostack, or to do pause break stacking with parts which have axles. Don't get me wrong, you can easily make a bot that would win against a ultrastackedVenkosmurfCOOLTEXT.comsplashart type bot without those advanced glitches (My tournament history for instance lul), but creating the theoretical best bot, which would have a high win rate against lots of different types of bots would most likely include some of the weirder, less known glitches like advanced stacking. So for me, finding advanced stacking made me feel like stock could reach a new level, where top, devoted builders would now spend hours of their time getting the most airtight chassis with big boi stacks and exostacks to make room for more offence/defence. Or making a defensive HS for instance, which utilizes a larger chassis by having bigger exostacked components around the sides and caster armor at he bottom to counter popups. This could create a new meta of competitive stock building for better or for worse.

Now for the part relevant to the title I guess.

When advanced stacking was being used more, it became extremely hard to tell if the builder had actually spent the time getting that sweet stack, or if they just BFE'd or Hax Mode'd it on. From what I remember there weren't any rules against advanced stacking, but some veteran members were against it, because as I remember it they couldn't easily tell if the bot was made with "Legal" techniques. I personally didn't know if advanced stacking was a bad thing being figured out, as it adds more possibilities for newer, good designs, but finding out new stacks with advanced stacking which look impossible would make people skeptical whether Hax Mode or BFE was used. So, did the differing views on Advanced stacking stop people from using the glitch or was it seen as taboo.

Do you guys think stock is fine as is, and doesn't need these newer sorts of glitches because they could create a different meta which could be more "stale", and with added risk of illegitimate building?
Or do you think that change would be good and refreshing for stock with its current state, as it could potentially turn the meta onto its head, making room for newer/improved designs?

Its 5:00 am, I don't know if what I typed made any sense because of my own opinions, or is relevant anymore because I see stock is still a thing in 2018 but..
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Offline 09090901

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the problem with stock is that everything about it is invalidated by ra2cf. nobody actually does snapper loading, advance stacking, or any type of glitch for that matter anymore lol. the only point of those glitches is to decide what is and what isn't legal with ra2cf (which also doesn't matter because very few members know what is and isn't legal in the bot lab)

also to be blunt, stock is pretty much dead now with the majority of the active userbase
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Offline KOS

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Wow, I guess with that being released, i can see why competitive stock would be killed pretty quick. Thanks for filling me in though


Offline Reier

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agree with geice but even before ra2cf it was hard to tell if a lot of the crazy stacks were legit. I have a hunch that many more builders than you think used BFE to get some mad stacks. Not even necessarily for 'cheating', but more for laziness (why take 30min to stack that triple black when you can just open notepad? would have happened either way, right...?). it's almost impossible to disprove some bizarre exostacks too (can't get your RAD to stick half out the chassis like I did?... guess my game copy just likes me more..). ra2cf is just easy BFE. nothing more or less imo. and it's basically impossible to crack down on in metas where it's illegal, so people just moved to different metas. ie IRL, super-easy-mode. where looks come before efficiency and BFE doesn't matter much as a result.
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Offline Sage

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the problem with stock is that everything about it is invalidated by ra2cf. nobody actually does snapper loading, advance stacking, or any type of glitch for that matter anymore lol. the only point of those glitches is to decide what is and what isn't legal with ra2cf (which also doesn't matter because very few members know what is and isn't legal in the bot lab)

also to be blunt, stock is pretty much dead now with the majority of the active userbase

that's not true. when I was building, even after RA2CF, i did everything in the bot lab. what really 'killed' building for me was hax mode, which FINALLY broke the rule of "if it's done in the bot lab it's legal" that had held true through effe, stacking, sloading, etc
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Offline RedAce

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Yeah, pretty much everything I can say has been said already.  Though on my side, as someone who has playing stock for years, I have to mention that I did try to build bots that could stand on their own, but sadly, the problem with stock for me is that pretty much everything that could be done has already been done better than I ever could do it.  It's why I tried to make as many hybrids as possible since it gave me a creative incentive while still proving my capabilities for stock.  It's also the reason I took that 2 1/2 year hiatus back in 2011.  I thought I could say it was just me not sure if I could find a style for me  that didn't sound like I can't make something original, but now I feel it's more lack of a reason to be creative or competitive.  That and my time and patience for the game has kinda died the more the years went on.  While I was a patient enough person when I was first around, I do remember some bots having some cheaty magic.  Nowadays, I tend to stay far away from that nowadays since the bots I may have made in 2011 probably aren't too viable anymore.   I could try to jump back into stick for one more bot for all times sake, but I know that the game is more and more brokken and I can't even say a legit stack for a bot is worth it now that all the tools are so easy to use and how broken they are.  Really, stock was the only fun competitive meta for me, but now it just feels cold and empty to do... anything really.

Also, if sound like this is off topic, then I apologize, cause it's not my intention.  I really am just trying to establish my end of the topic because I don't really think a simple "yeah what they said" could cut it for me anymore.

Offline Reier

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the problem with stock is that everything about it is invalidated by ra2cf. nobody actually does snapper loading, advance stacking, or any type of glitch for that matter anymore lol. the only point of those glitches is to decide what is and what isn't legal with ra2cf (which also doesn't matter because very few members know what is and isn't legal in the bot lab)

also to be blunt, stock is pretty much dead now with the majority of the active userbase

that's not true. when I was building, even after RA2CF, i did everything in the bot lab. what really 'killed' building for me was hax mode, which FINALLY broke the rule of "if it's done in the bot lab it's legal" that had held true through effe, stacking, sloading, etc
hax mode and ra2cf both basically let you ignore collision so for all intents and purposes they're the same, but ra2cf is just easier to use for most people
...basically like stacking. lazy people will just use ra2cf instead of stacking cause it gets you the same results with less work. unfortunately it lets you break the rules by accident too. "purity" aside, it's too gray of a line now.

stock is dead because it's hard, tedious, and nearly impossible to be original for new players. it's nothing personal, but there's a reason people play irl dsl for the most part.
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Offline 090901

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hey george bby  :heart_smiley:

i would say it has to do with more that it hit it's peak similar to how dsl 2.1 did with the whole flail ram razor sorta thing, there really isn't anything left new to try. so pretty much what redace said tbh. it also doesnt help that the whole competitive vibe of ra2 died out years ago too.

Offline KOS

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hey Chris bby  :heart_smiley:


It's a shame that Stock did reach that inevitable point, but I guess it lasted a pretty long time being a game that was released 15 years ago


Offline Dreamcast

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The idea of building to win is probably not dead. There are always people trying to win. But Stock/DSL-S seems both so concrete ("Nothing but HS and Popups.") and so hard to finish ("Those robots are too good, I'd never do well.") that some builders don't bother.

Those same builders have more fun with a meta if it's abstract, and they are happier if it's easy. The builders are then able to build more things and perhaps defeat less skilled or non-competitive builders. After that, some builders may build off the new information they learned and potentially be the best.