gametechmods
Robot Arena => Discussion => Topic started by: Gauche Suede on June 24, 2013, 12:42:19 PM
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I noticed that most newbies pick up DSL-IRL building style and never tried something else. This bothers me (and venko), and i just wanted a little discussion about this.
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its more fun and easy to build in
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its more fun and easy to build in
not always true
noobs build irl because other noobs (and badnik) tell them to. it's a lot easier to build in irl because you dont think about 'how can i make this bot have more weapons/drive' or anything like that. personally i think that people should build for the rule of cool more than irl, it looks a lot better and you dont think 'oh this bot has too many weapons what do i do' (although people shouldn't think that in any case anyway). the term irl can mean so much, and you aren't building up to any kind of level, which is why i think we should use the rule of cool in place of irl instead, for a better standard of building.
although i do think people should build dsl standard before any of this
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Which is why there needs to be reforms. IRL is about an exact term as "Eurasia" is. There are many different subcategories, and some are just excuses for bad building.
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And the whole thing about IRL tournaments since that seems to rustle people's jimmies;
IRL bots can at least somewhat fight. Whenever I AI something that I've made (which was only once lol) I usually toss it in with a DSL replica, and it can definitely hold its own against one. It's not like these 'punching bags' are completely worthless, they can put on a bit of a fight, and so people fight them. And tournaments are made.
And then people (Like Fotepx) try to win those tournaments. Personally, outside of the botlab I think IRL is about making something look good and put on a good show.
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Bwahaha this is game. I don't think this really matters all that much.
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irl is chosen most of the time because its easier than putting effort into learning the mechanics of the game and becoming a better builder.
ideally a newbie would actually learn the ins-and-outs of basic dsl 101 (APs and sh**) then go on to IRL if they choose so. then there wont be ANY more S.H.I.E.L.D's failcase 2.0s that take ~30 pages to show any improvement at all.
other noobs (and badnik)
are you 100% certain theyre not one in the same...?
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Of course beginners likes IRL. Since people cannot agree to what IRL is, everyone just create their own interpretations. You can now throw extenders all over a place and call it a style. There even seem to have a subculture that promotes IRL bots to be bad at fights. And while people claim that IRL is about aesthetics, this isn't an art forum and you are most likely not going to get any useful art critiques. Instead you will get the circle jerk and praise so long as it isn't butt ugly.
It's no wonder why new people are into IRL, IT'S ACTUALLY FUN.
By contrast, DSL standard is no fun at all. All you get are people complaining you should use this and shouldn't use that, then you must go download and kill every bot in NAR AI and 123AI just to be average. Once you hit average nobody cares, like literally. 0 replies for every new bots posted. Way to go DSL standard, you suck.
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0 replies for every new bots posted.
It goes both ways...
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Ever since I was little I've wanted to design my own robots like the one I saw on the tv, so I'm very sorry if by doing what I love, I 'bother you'.
It's a game. I'll play it how I want.
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Going with Mazakari here. And I'm pretty sure I've only enticed one builder to build IRL, and he wanted to.
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Here is what I think, about the bulding styles :
:thumbup Stock : It may don't have the variety or the balance of the DSL, but it's still cool. But some noobs/newbies can find it too hard, cos of the stacking, snapper loading and stuff.
:thumbup Stock noob level on purpose (but not stock IRL, it sux) : I'm OK with it, even some times I make a noob tournaments vs a noob AI or vs friends (they are noobs).
:thumbup DSL normal/standard : I'm not playing it, but I do respect it. If I ever build DSL, it will be the standard DSL. I remember the days, when all the members were building the both - DSL standard and stock, and it was cool. It just turns out, that even with the tries to balance it, in the end, some components are just better, like in stock, and I understand this, but I love stock with his unbalanced components, so the liking of DSL-S is not a problem.
:thumbdown DSL IRL : The so called DSL-easy mode. The fact > , that my bots must be judged by a GTM members are they IRL or not, or a judges have to decide did I won or not, > alienates me from the IRL DSL. This is a game, the RA2 engine don't have the phisics of the real world, so if someone want to play something VERY realistic, then a real bot building in a garage is more recomended, but it's expensive tho.
:popcorn DSL 3 beta, Nar AI, 123's new TC and so on : not yet released/in a beta stage, so I can't comment them.
:thumbup Replica building : I'm OK with it, I even made 1 replica in stock long time ago.
Also, IMO, if you build stock, it makes you a better/hardcore builder overall ('cos stock is hard to build), so it makes the building easy later, when you move to the easier any DSL, but if you start with any DSL in the begining, later the stock will look very hard for you.
*post made more clear, in the terms of meaning, now*
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Well NFX made a good stock IRL bot, and so did Thy. And, building a real robot takes actual knowledge of the components :dumb). I'm just 15 year old idiot.
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Chill out, boys. If you had to argue, then keep it civil.
That's it, you are warned. If I see any more insulting and flaming in this thread I will be merciless.
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Anyway if it's a game then we should be able to build what we want. If people want to build bots like in IRL then why not?
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I agree with Mazakari on this one.
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Lol who wants to play DSL-S anyway?
Answer: Nobody.
People play IRL because standard has turned to "MOAR RAZORZ".
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Anyway if it's a game then we should be able to build what we want. If people want to build bots like in IRL then why not?
Did I say, that I forbid (or force poeple or whatever) to others to play DSL IRL? I just posted MY OPINION and the reasons to not play it.
Everyone have the rights to play it, but I also have the rights to hate it, so I'm going to -rep the double standart people, that -rep me for not wanting it. Hating the IRL DSL is not againt the rules of this forum, you know. Why everytime when I post my opinion and the haters are not agree, they grudge/insult or - rep without any serious reason? Well then...
@ 123 : Obviously : I, Nary and some few others, but I have the rights to say what I think about the building styles.
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It's fairly obvious you don't like DSL or IRL without bleating on about it.
I mean, just don't play it. Simple.
I don't build Stock in the way that you do, nor do I have a showcase, because I dislike the style, but you don't see me whining about how bad it is.
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Naryar builds Standard? I thought he only builds drunken bots for the past year.
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I build IRL mostly now because I really like thinking about real designs. That and what 123 has already stated - DSL-S isn't fun anymore. It's gotten to where Stock always has been to me. You build a certain bot type or you suck.
Besides
1) It's a game, I can do what I want
2) I think I innovated in DSL-S enough, even if it was only 1 design, I can do what I want.
EDIT: I should make clear however that I think new builders should learn skills of the game itself, even like what components to use (eg Multis not Baseplate Anchors) and space management before delving into IRL
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So essentially I could say "Stock builders can go **** themselves, it's a game, you don't need to spend 5+ hours making the tiniest chassis adjustments, stacking 3 blacks, etc" and you wouldn't hate on me for it? Is that what you're saying?
Yeah I don't see how it would take you 5+ hours to make a robot unless you making some huge UHW like Venko did for BOTM or make chassis off of math.
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What would happen if I build IRL DSL? Will I come up with some very effective new cool innovative never seen before design? If yes, they will probably s*** their pants from the fear of loosing and starting to label it as "illegal/cheap/not IRL" to prevent me from beating them (PI is a judge, and he hates me, so...). DSL IRL Cheap Norris anyone? CN can be built IRL.
That's the story behind my post about IRL DSL. This stoped me to even consider of starting it - some members from that community. But try to guess, will I ever play it after this thread...
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Venko if you managed to make a cool, never before seen design that could be made IRL, I'd be shocked, but I wouldn't go so far as to claim it not IRL. Yes Cheap Norris could be made IRL, but it wouldn't, just because it would kill itself as soon as its drive fell off.
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Yes Cheap Norris could be made IRL, but it wouldn't, just because it would kill itself everybody watching the battle outside the arena as soon as its drive fell off.
Fixed :dumb)
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I agree with Maz, in that people who bought RA2 wanted to build realistic robots like the ones they saw on Battlebots/Robot Wars, not crazy glitchy stacked 38 mace HSs, hence the rise of IRL
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Clearly what this topic needs are more Luv <3 for IRL!!!
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I agree with Maz, in that people who bought RA2 wanted to build realistic robots like the ones they saw on Battlebots/Robot Wars, not crazy glitchy stacked 38 mace HSs, hence the rise of IRL
QFT
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Back on topic, I think DSL-IRL is a good starting point, and is certainly more friendly than the "stack blacks, you could save 0.2kg by ditching the chassis and spending half an hour getting everything just so again" mentality that has always kept me away from any competitive stock. The problem arises when people end up going "Nice, is it IRL or standard?" presuming that A) The new user knows what standard is and B) That they want to be drafted into one of two channels and not choose the Dominating option of "Whatever the hell I like".
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DSL-S "is" whatever the heck you like minus a few stacking rules and overlapping spinners. You don't see anyone going into domanating's showcase complaining about efficiency.
However if they ask what will make their DSL-S bot function better, that's a whole other story. We don't get to choose what works and what doesn't in DSL2 or RA2 physics.
Or maybe instead of caring about efficiency and tournaments, they can enter BOTM.
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Back on topic, I think DSL-IRL is a good starting point, and is certainly more friendly than the "stack blacks, you could save 0.2kg by ditching the chassis and spending half an hour getting everything just so again" mentality that has always kept me away from any competitive stock. The problem arises when people end up going "Nice, is it IRL or standard?" presuming that A) The new user knows what standard is and B) That they want to be drafted into one of two channels and not choose the Dominating option of "Whatever the hell I like".
^^the truth and nothing but the truth.
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This thread has been cleaned. I was also debating about locking or deleting this thread but there was nothing wrong with it besides the fact that it is highly controversial and many people got carried away. Expect punishments to be dealt out in the coming days. Anyone who decides to take part in another flame war here in this thread (even if you started it) will receive a minimum ban of 1 month.
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I dunno trov I don't think anyone exceeded bounds in this thread, with the exception of Mazakari.
But your call.
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Expect punishments to be dealt out in the coming days.
So I'm gonna get muted twice for one incident, am I?
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Expect punishments to be dealt out in the coming days.
So I'm gonna get muted twice for one incident, am I?
if you continue to be like that, maybe
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I wasn't aware that asking a valid question was a bannable offence.
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No, you are being passive-aggressive.
Besides, do you believe that we are so unfair that you will be muted twice for the same offence ?
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I was asking because although you have muted me, Trov has yet to step in, and I was wondering if somebody who'd already been punished would be subject to further action in his eyes.
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Here is what I think, about the bulding styles :
:thumbup Stock : It may don't have the variety or the balance of the DSL, but it's still cool. But some noobs/newbies can find it too hard, cos of the stacking, snapper loading and stuff.
:thumbup Stock noob level on purpose (but not stock IRL, it sux) : I'm OK with it, even some times I make a noob tournaments vs a noob AI or vs friends (they are noobs).
:thumbup DSL normal/standard : I'm not playing it, but I do respect it. If I ever build DSL, it will be the standard DSL. I remember the days, when all the members were building the both - DSL standard and stock, and it was cool. It just turns out, that even with the tries to balance it, in the end, some components are just better, like in stock, and I understand this, but I love stock with his unbalanced components, so the liking of DSL-S is not a problem.
:thumbdown DSL IRL : The so called DSL-easy mode. The fact > , that my bots must be judged by a GTM members are they IRL or not, or a judges have to decide did I won or not, > alienates me from the IRL DSL. This is a game, the RA2 engine don't have the phisics of the real world, so if someone want to play something VERY realistic, then a real bot building in a garage is more recomended, but it's expensive tho.
:popcorn DSL 3 beta, Nar AI, 123's new TC and so on : not yet released/in a beta stage, so I can't comment them.
:thumbup Replica building : I'm OK with it, I even made 1 replica in stock long time ago.
Also, IMO, if you build stock, it makes you a better/hardcore builder overall ('cos stock is hard to build), so it makes the building easy later, when you move to the easier any DSL, but if you start with any DSL in the begining, later the stock will look very hard for you.
*post made more clear, in the terms of meaning, now*
I didn't use the right words for my opinion, now it's more clear.
Also, why the MikeNCR's post, explaining why he likes IRL DSL, was deleted? Nothing was wrong with his posts at all, he spoken some good stuff - off and on topic.
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Do you want to change your style?Oh it is to some extent dangerous.You have been known as your style and you will not be know as you change your style.
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For what its worth I make/made IRL bots that could win fights, that to me is what IRL is... something you could see or even build in real life. I think there has been a merging of 'art bots' and IRL which has created confusion, as they are not quite the same.
Combat IRL should be 'realism' genre