7 changes I'd like to see in DSL 2.3!

[FOTEPX]

Feel free to add to this list, but I've put in a good 100+ hours into DSL 2.2 now, and here are a few things I'd change to make it better.

1) PLEASE, FOR THE LOVE OF CRAP, NERF MECHAVORE DISCS AND FRENZY HAMMERS! They're way too overpowered, to the point where it doesn't really make sense to make anything other than hammers and spinners. It's ruining the meta-game.
2) Make Steel armour more weight-efficient, or add another type of armour plating between Titanium and Steel. Hardox, maybe? Having Steel weigh 2x more than Titanium is impractical, and puts it out of bounds for most regular uses. 1.5X would definitely make it more viable, or placing an armament in that space.
3) Make Backlash Wheels work similar to how Techno Destructo wheels work now. Surely, a wider wheelbase would mean more grip? Nope, Guess not. Also, 1-2 more wheeltypes for antweights/beetleweights would be nice.
4) Add a 5-degree variant of the extenders, or of the base extender. I know this is a bit nit-picky, but I love to have all my angles in order. and having to attach a 30 degree extender to a 45 degree one just to get a 15 degree angle is a tad silly. If you don't want to do this, instead, make a swivelable version of the baseplate extender that can only go 45 degrees max either which way so as to prevent it from being used as a wedge. That way, you could keep the current wedge meta, but promote more varied uses of angles.
5) More attachment points for batteries. Right now, Battlepacks and WDP's are the most powerful batteries in the game, simply because they can be fit into a variety of spaces. if you added side attachment points for the larger batteries, and perhaps buffed their electotal, it would make them a lot moer viable, and promote their use.
6) Make unbelted versions of the Perm 80 and Perm 132, as well as an either bigger Perm motor, perhaps a Perm 184. An unbelted variant of the Perm means that you could re-introduce face spinners to the metagame, and also a larger Perm motor means that spinners can be even more destructive. A Dual-Perm 184 gearbox, weighing in at 320Kg's... Phoo, baby.
7) Make more AI components accesible to the average builder. Sure, the Frenzy Hammer and Mechavore Disc are a tad unbalanced, but there are plenty of AI parts that could be used really well in a regular builder's arsenal. I'd love to see Beta Hammers, or Razer's Claw, available as another way to acheive robotic dominance.

And that's it! Any more you can think of, post 'em below, and let me know what you think of this list!

[madman3]

I would also recommend adding some form of shorter motor that can fit on the minimum height chassis for drum bots. Something in kind of a horseshoe shape with the motor parallel to the axle, connected by a variable length belt. Something like a perm but shorter height wise and perhaps wider. with a few different optional attachment points (such that from the baseplate the belt can be at 0, 10, 20 and 30 degree angles).

It's very difficult to practically build powerful irl drum bots which don't look stupid/have a load of external motors. Something that'll help with building them would be a big help and quite practical at this point

[R01]

Oh so people are finally starting with 2.3 threads? to be honest I'm quite surprised that Click hasn't released a 2.2.1 patch to fix things such as the broken arenas(think the Gauntlet map still crashes for me all the time) as well as buffing Razors/Irons and nerfing Mechavore Discs/Frenzy Hammers.
Personally I think that those should have the same stats of what an extender of the same lenght+weapon would have, so they're more skins than anything else. I'm not a fan of seeing AI parts everywhere, better to get robot neutral parts but having stuff like Beta's hammer arm and hammer attachment would be good.

A thing I'd love to have is a lite version of DSL where the AI replica parts aren't included, half of them don't seem to be used unless you use the replicas in the Design folders or ai them while the other half is used for the bots in the AI teams(which I almost never fight against)

Isn't steel like super strong through? But yeah that's needed as well as a armor that weighs 10kg. Also maybe make all those armors separate instead of sub categories(IF already has that for a few) so the game remembers your selection, not just that you selected plastic before.

Having more than 45 degree edges(together with making the steel ones heavier but have more hp) would be nice. 45 degree also seems to be a little more than that and it would be nice if they were shaped a bit differently to connect better:

Instead of:

\
 \
_\

do this:
\
 \
_|

NPC's also need a fix with the attachment points:



As for motors, having something like the Redbird/Ztek Stock ones for all weightclasses would be really nice.

[FOTEPX]

For me, the gauntlet map works fine.

Buffing razors/irons would just encourage people to go back to their convieniences, rather than experiment with new weapon types. I say, keep 'em nerfed.

Aye, DSL 2.2 Lite would be a great thing.

Steel's only 2x stronger than Titanium, but also 2x heavier. From what I've experienced, Titanium will protect your bot sufficiently 90% of time, and Steel's simply not worth the weight increase. Steel becomes more feasible when it comes to HW's, but even then Titanium is the better metal to use if weight restrictions are a worry.

I agree with your points on the extenders, as well as your points about the NPC's.

I'm hesitant to suggest adding more motors, as I don't want one motor to be blatantly unusable, or for a pre-existing motor to already to a better job - copals and E-tek's inhabit that realm, and it's a dark place.

[Squirrel_Monkey]

The NPC attachment point is legacy from 2.1 so Click didn't change it.

[Badger]

I love all the points in the OP, I sincerely hope they are implemented, though I think Click isn't active these days. Maybe someone with some balancing experience make a DSL Promod?

[R01]

For me, the gauntlet map works fine.

Buffing razors/irons would just encourage people to go back to their convieniences, rather than experiment with new weapon types. I say, keep 'em nerfed.

Aye, DSL 2.2 Lite would be a great thing.

Steel's only 2x stronger than Titanium, but also 2x heavier. From what I've experienced, Titanium will protect your bot sufficiently 90% of time, and Steel's simply not worth the weight increase. Steel becomes more feasible when it comes to HW's, but even then Titanium is the better metal to use if weight restrictions are a worry.

I agree with your points on the extenders, as well as your points about the NPC's.

I'm hesitant to suggest adding more motors, as I don't want one motor to be blatantly unusable, or for a pre-existing motor to already to a better job - copals and E-tek's inhabit that realm, and it's a dark place.

Did you patch 2.1 to 2.2 or directly DL 2.2?
From what I've heard Razors and Irons are almost useless now, just get them on a similar level or maybe with just a little less damage so people will use them once in a while/for their non normal use.
Guess making it 1.5 would be good then.
Right, the E-Teks exist(having something like that as drive motor would be interesting through), but what about drums?

The NPC attachment point is legacy from 2.1 so Click didn't change it.

Oh I see, thought that it would create a problem while updating it. Maybe two points could be added to each?

[FOTEPX]

Did you patch 2.1 to 2.2 or directly DL 2.2?
From what I've heard Razors and Irons are almost useless now, just get them on a similar level or maybe with just a little less damage so people will use them once in a while/for their non normal use.
Guess making it 1.5 would be good then.
Right, the E-Teks exist(having something like that as drive motor would be interesting through), but what about drums?

The NPC attachment point is legacy from 2.1 so Click didn't change it.

Oh I see, thought that it would create a problem while updating it. Maybe two points could be added to each?

Originally I did patch, but it glitched often, so I just direct downloaded, and ported over whatever files I needed from my DSL 2.1 save. Apart from a few issues with my teams.txt files, it's been fine.

They're not useless at all, you just need to pick your weapons wisely rather than the old "spam razors/irons" strategy.

For drums, that's where the unbelted variants of the Perm motors would come in. Just have them directly power your drum, rather than a belt.

Having two AP's would just mean that people would toggle between whichever AP is best for the situation. I think Click should do it similar to how he fixed the Metal Hinge problem, where there's two variants of the metal hinge - one which goes under the old name, which all DSL 2.1/2.2 bots would use, but would be hidden from normal use, and then another, newer one, with updated AP's.

[R01]

Did you patch 2.1 to 2.2 or directly DL 2.2?
From what I've heard Razors and Irons are almost useless now, just get them on a similar level or maybe with just a little less damage so people will use them once in a while/for their non normal use.
Guess making it 1.5 would be good then.
Right, the E-Teks exist(having something like that as drive motor would be interesting through), but what about drums?

The NPC attachment point is legacy from 2.1 so Click didn't change it.

Oh I see, thought that it would create a problem while updating it. Maybe two points could be added to each?

Originally I did patch, but it glitched often, so I just direct downloaded, and ported over whatever files I needed from my DSL 2.1 save. Apart from a few issues with my teams.txt files, it's been fine.

They're not useless at all, you just need to pick your weapons wisely rather than the old "spam razors/irons" strategy.

For drums, that's where the unbelted variants of the Perm motors would come in. Just have them directly power your drum, rather than a belt.

Having two AP's would just mean that people would toggle between whichever AP is best for the situation. I think Click should do it similar to how he fixed the Metal Hinge problem, where there's two variants of the metal hinge - one which goes under the old name, which all DSL 2.1/2.2 bots would use, but would be hidden from normal use, and then another, newer one, with updated AP's.

Yeah, that would be the alternative.(either that or writing a script to update the bots, but that's simpler). I'm surprised that someone actually liked the DSL lite idea.

[FOTEPX]

Yeah, that would be the alternative.(either that or writing a script to update the bots, but that's simpler). I'm surprised that someone actually liked the DSL lite idea.

Yeah, I had the idea of doing DSL Lite years ago,but the issue is that there's so many files to sift through that it would require someone, like Click, who had a comprehensive log of every file in DSL.

[madman3]

Did you patch 2.1 to 2.2 or directly DL 2.2?
From what I've heard Razors and Irons are almost useless now, just get them on a similar level or maybe with just a little less damage so people will use them once in a while/for their non normal use.
Guess making it 1.5 would be good then.
Right, the E-Teks exist(having something like that as drive motor would be interesting through), but what about drums?

The NPC attachment point is legacy from 2.1 so Click didn't change it.

Oh I see, thought that it would create a problem while updating it. Maybe two points could be added to each?

For drums, that's where the unbelted variants of the Perm motors would come in. Just have them directly power your drum, rather than a belt.

Nah perms are super bulky. If I wanted to build a Minotaur-lite bot it'd be basically impossible without making it weirdly big and cumbersome.

[Mr. AS]

Yeah, that would be the alternative.(either that or writing a script to update the bots, but that's simpler). I'm surprised that someone actually liked the DSL lite idea.

Yeah, I had the idea of doing DSL Lite years ago,but the issue is that there's so many files to sift through that it would require someone, like Click, who had a comprehensive log of every file in DSL.

Clickbeetle actually PM'd me the balance numbers he was using for DSL back in December, when I needed them for RWRA2+. These should be accurate considering he sent me them roughly 2 weeks before DSL 2.2 was released.

Well, there are a lot of them...

Armor and extenders are simple, just 400 HP per kg.

Weapons are more complicated.  First I calculate efficiency by taking a base 50,000 and adding 1,000 x mass.  So a 10kg weapon has 60,000 efficiency.  Then I extract DP and HP from the efficiency by the traditional E = DP*HP/mass.  If the weapon has normals, it gets a 1.4x or 2x boost to DP depending on how many normals.  Finally I adjust the DP/HP ratio within about a +/- 20% range of 1:1.

For burst motors I just make up whatever power numbers I want and then calculate how much HP it should have by the formula HP = (mass * batterydrain)/((burstspeed * bursttorque)+(retractspeed * retracttorque)) * 150.

For drive motors I do the same thing but HP = ((mass^2)/power)*50.  Weapon motors are HP = (mass/(speed*power))*151600.

For wheels, first I calculate grip by grip = 0.8 + (circumference/4.5) + bonus grip.  Adding "Bonus grip" is how I adjust the grip/hp ratio.  Then I get HP by HP = (200*(mass-5))/(grip-0.5).

I have an Excel spreadsheet that stores all the formulas and does all the calculations for me, otherwise these balance formulas would be way too unwieldy.

http://beetlebros.gametechmods.com/files/ComponentBalancing.xls

It also includes a macro for the New Weapons that writes all the necessary information to the txt files, so I can quickly make small changes to the balance formulas and apply them without having to pick through 100 txt files.  I don't think it would be useful unless you're making a total conversion mod (Just an FYI, I ended up making my own spreadsheet for Retooled's components, since the balancing is so different from DSL's. I'll probably throw it onto the forum some time down the line) but I thought I'd point it out.  That's what the filename and description columns are for.

To run it, first display the Developer tab if you haven't already, click the Visual Basic button, double click on UserForm1 in the Forms folder on the left, and then click the green Run Macro arrow at the top.

Credit to my dad for writing the macro.

IDK if Click is OK with me posting these or not, but he hasn't been on since April, and DSL 2.2 has been out for a few months, so... yeah.

He can also just yoink the file off the server if the DSL balancing details are the RA2 equivalent of KFC's 11 herbs and spices, but I think it's a safe bet that this isn't the case.

[R01]

Did you patch 2.1 to 2.2 or directly DL 2.2?
From what I've heard Razors and Irons are almost useless now, just get them on a similar level or maybe with just a little less damage so people will use them once in a while/for their non normal use.
Guess making it 1.5 would be good then.
Right, the E-Teks exist(having something like that as drive motor would be interesting through), but what about drums?

The NPC attachment point is legacy from 2.1 so Click didn't change it.

Oh I see, thought that it would create a problem while updating it. Maybe two points could be added to each?

For drums, that's where the unbelted variants of the Perm motors would come in. Just have them directly power your drum, rather than a belt.

Nah perms are super bulky. If I wanted to build a Minotaur-lite bot it'd be basically impossible without making it weirdly big and cumbersome.

Yeah, that's why I was thinking about Ztek like motors because Perms are still rather big. What about E-Teks?

IDK if Click is OK with me posting these or not, but he hasn't been on since April, and DSL 2.2 has been out for a few months, so... yeah.

He can also just yoink the file off the server if the DSL balancing details are the RA2 equivalent of KFC's 11 herbs and spices, but I think it's a safe bet that this isn't the case.

Thanks for the info, it's always good to see how stuff works behind the scenes. Still wonder how Mecha and Frenzy could get so OP(unless those aren't based on that formula which is most likely the case). Now if Office Starter only didn't break... oh well there's still Kingsoft and Libre Office.

As for irons/razors, ok if you people say so. It's just that I haven't seen them used anywhere and making them too situational doesn't seem like a great thing, then again better than having them everywhere.

I did remember two things I wanted to see, for one stronger axles. Dunno how IF does it(apparenlty they're thicker?) but DSL's axle load themselves without you needing to do anything.(could a invisible mesh that has the biger width fix this?) Another thing would be adding lines to the height slider, showing what height you'd need for certain components to fit, as well as 1/2 and 1/4 grid parts on the chassis creation.

Oh, minor thing but Mad's Smart Zones could be reduced to be 0 kg as well as the game including antiballasts?

[09090901]

I still think the larger batteries aren't powerful enough for their weight, especially with how powerful wp8's and battlepacks are.

[madman3]

Eteks are again too tall. Something like an NPC sized motor (perhaps wider or longer but not taller) with a belt drive.

[Mr. AS]

Thanks for the info, it's always good to see how stuff works behind the scenes. Still wonder how Mecha and Frenzy could get so OP(unless those aren't based on that formula which is most likely the case). Now if Office Starter only didn't break... oh well there's still Kingsoft and Libre Office.

As for irons/razors, ok if you people say so. It's just that I haven't seen them used anywhere and making them too situational doesn't seem like a great thing, then again better than having them everywhere.

I did remember two things I wanted to see, for one stronger axles. Dunno how IF does it(apparenlty they're thicker?) but DSL's axle load themselves without you needing to do anything.(could a invisible mesh that has the biger width fix this?)

FrenZy and MV discs are OP because they have normals and weigh a lot.

Normals weapons get a yuge damage bonus in DSL, basically the less angles it damages opponents at, the higher of a damage multiplier it gets. According to the excel sheet, it seems CB decided that the FrenZy hammer deserves a x2.0 multiplier, and the MV discs "only" deserve a 1.4x multiplier. They also get a weight bonus too.

For every 1 kg a component has, it gains an extra 1000 to it's overall efficiency multiplier, with 50000 as a base. A 10kg component has 60000 efficiency, a 70kg component has twice that. The Mechavore discs weigh 52kg and Frenzys weigh 25kg. While 25 is pretty average, 52kg makes a component leaps and bounds better across the board compared to lighter weapons comparatively. The current efficiency curve is a bit too steep IMO.

TL;DR prepare your anus for a meta dominated by normals and heavy weapons, and especially heavy weapons that have normals.

IF's axles are more stable because they weigh more in the .gmf. That's literally all there is to it.

[Meganerdbomb]

So DSL 2.2 tends toward IRL?

[Badger]

So DSL 2.2 tends toward IRL?

No, DSL-S with replica components

[R01]

Thanks for the info, it's always good to see how stuff works behind the scenes. Still wonder how Mecha and Frenzy could get so OP(unless those aren't based on that formula which is most likely the case). Now if Office Starter only didn't break... oh well there's still Kingsoft and Libre Office.

As for irons/razors, ok if you people say so. It's just that I haven't seen them used anywhere and making them too situational doesn't seem like a great thing, then again better than having them everywhere.

I did remember two things I wanted to see, for one stronger axles. Dunno how IF does it(apparenlty they're thicker?) but DSL's axle load themselves without you needing to do anything.(could a invisible mesh that has the biger width fix this?)

FrenZy and MV discs are OP because they have normals and weigh a lot.

Normals weapons get a yuge damage bonus in DSL, basically the less angles it damages opponents at, the higher of a damage multiplier it gets. According to the excel sheet, it seems CB decided that the FrenZy hammer deserves a x2.0 multiplier, and the MV discs "only" deserve a 1.4x multiplier. They also get a weight bonus too.

For every 1 kg a component has, it gains an extra 1000 to it's overall efficiency multiplier, with 50000 as a base. A 10kg component has 60000 efficiency, a 70kg component has twice that. The Mechavore discs weigh 52kg and Frenzys weigh 25kg. While 25 is pretty average, 52kg makes a component leaps and bounds better across the board compared to lighter weapons comparatively. The current efficiency curve is a bit too steep IMO.

TL;DR prepare your anus for a meta dominated by normals and heavy weapons, and especially heavy weapons that have normals.

IF's axles are more stable because they weigh more in the .gmf. That's literally all there is to it.

I haven't taken a look at the sheet yet, but something that went through my mind while thinking about this is how those components are basically spike+hammer+extender(for frenzy hammer) and disc+2x tooth(for mechavore disks), I think that might be the problem why they were so OP, Frenzy Hammer only needs the damage value of the higher of the two and the health of all(or only extender+hammer) components, while mechavore discs only need the damage value of one tooth but HP of the entire thing.