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Robot Arena => Discussion => Topic started by: Squirrel_Monkey on April 26, 2011, 07:04:26 AM

Title: "Ultimate" Robot Challenge.
Post by: Squirrel_Monkey on April 26, 2011, 07:04:26 AM
OK, what on earth is this about?
Well, I decided that in DSL (especially LW or below), it may be possible to make the ultimate robot.


How are we going to find it?
Through your input we shall discuss what is needed for this robot which shall be DSL LW. I or someone else who is free then shall make the robot as close to our specifications a s possible. Once we are happy, the bot is complete!


Then what?
Next, to the challenge board! Anyone who thinks they can make a better robot will challenge the "Ultimate Robot" to a best of 3 match in the BBEANS V2 arena. Hopefully our bot will win. If not, the challenger will become the ultimate robot, and so on until nobody believes they can beat it. Or we could have it so the Ultimate robot can be tweaked to iron out flaws if it loses.


What if we just get loads of robots built just to counter the ultimate robot?
Then, erm, we hope we win! This may just end up with an endless cycle of bots but maybe it will work! If not, at least we ended up with a good robot...


So what is my suggestion?
Since wedges are so vital for most bots, I say make a wedge killer. Flail SnS's look good at the moment.


NOTE: I don't think we should allow things such as crawlers and bumble balls.


So, what are your ideas?


POLL 1: How shall we run this? Will be up soon, feel free to suggest more ideas for finding the ultimate robot.
Title: Re: "Ultimate" Robot Challenge.
Post by: freeziez on April 26, 2011, 08:33:39 AM
POLL 1: How shall we run this? Will be up soon, feel free to suggest more ideas for finding the ultimate robot.

- 16 people submit bots. Those bots fight in a standard double-elim tourney, and the winner is crowned the Ultimate Robot. Then, we start a Challenge Board page (we only need one) and anyone can submit a bot to battle the Ultimate Robot. If the challenger wins, then it is the new Ultimate Robot. If the challenger loses, then the Ultimate Robot keeps its crown.

So whaddaya think?
Title: Re: "Ultimate" Robot Challenge.
Post by: Conraaa on April 26, 2011, 08:34:44 AM
Sounds a lot like a challenge belt sort of thing.
Title: Re: "Ultimate" Robot Challenge.
Post by: freeziez on April 26, 2011, 08:35:12 AM
Sounds a lot like a challenge belt sort of thing.

That's pretty much exactly what I was going for.
Title: Re: "Ultimate" Robot Challenge.
Post by: Squirrel_Monkey on April 26, 2011, 08:38:28 AM
We can't make anything too tourney-esque.
Title: Re: "Ultimate" Robot Challenge.
Post by: freeziez on April 26, 2011, 08:46:04 AM
Well, instead of the tourney, why don't we just have 1 heat of 4 robots to determine the original Ultimate Robot?
Title: Re: "Ultimate" Robot Challenge.
Post by: JoeBlo on April 26, 2011, 08:48:17 AM
Its not really an Ultimate robot.. thats just a tournament really..

The point S_M is trying to achieve is to have a single robot that multiple people help to create.. make something near unbeatable for the current standards (will probably push the standards further with people trying to beat it) 

Kinda like S13.. For a while it was THE robot to beat.. if you could beat it 1 on 1 under AI you got yourself some good rep as a builder.. (nowadays building has surpassed it a little so its no longer the one to beat)
Title: Re: "Ultimate" Robot Challenge.
Post by: Squirrel_Monkey on April 26, 2011, 08:51:34 AM
^This^
So any suggestions for the bot or changes to the weight class?
Title: Re: "Ultimate" Robot Challenge.
Post by: Preytor_4 on April 26, 2011, 08:54:02 AM
I think we should have people just name out anything that a good bot has and then one (or more) member(s) make the bot with said ideas.
Title: Re: "Ultimate" Robot Challenge.
Post by: Scorpion on April 26, 2011, 08:57:54 AM
How about a chinese whispers kinda thing, but without sending the bot, it's hosted by one person, and pictures of it are posted here, where people can give advice on what to do to improve it, each update is discussed here, and then if it's given the go ahead the host adds the update to the bot.
Title: Re: "Ultimate" Robot Challenge.
Post by: Squirrel_Monkey on April 26, 2011, 09:02:43 AM
Poll added. Won't last too long.
Title: Re: "Ultimate" Robot Challenge.
Post by: Avalanche on April 26, 2011, 09:07:53 AM
Id say something NOT on the poll. Whole community works together to create a brilliant bot,then the community makes more to try and throw off the Ultimate Bot,If they succeed then that bot is the ultimate bot.
Title: Re: "Ultimate" Robot Challenge.
Post by: Squirrel_Monkey on April 26, 2011, 09:10:28 AM
That's option 2.
Title: Re: "Ultimate" Robot Challenge.
Post by: JoeBlo on April 26, 2011, 09:39:39 AM
I disagree with the last part though..

If a robot was built to specifically beat the Ultimate robot then it would create a rock paper scissors effect

If its beaten it should be improved further to be able to beat the other robot in a rematch..

So in other words a single robot that learns form its defeat.
Title: Re: "Ultimate" Robot Challenge.
Post by: Squirrel_Monkey on April 26, 2011, 09:45:11 AM
That's what I was planning... I was talking about the bot creation in this poll, not the bits afterwards.
Title: Re: "Ultimate" Robot Challenge.
Post by: Badnik96 on April 26, 2011, 03:57:23 PM
We start with Final Z :P
Title: Re: "Ultimate" Robot Challenge.
Post by: Enigm@ on April 26, 2011, 04:00:04 PM
I can already tell it's going to be a pop-up or HS.
Title: Re: "Ultimate" Robot Challenge.
Post by: Avalanche on April 27, 2011, 02:00:32 AM
No.HYBRIDS are a major zone.Combine a juggler with a clamp for instance.Clamps bots and damages away.
Title: Re: "Ultimate" Robot Challenge.
Post by: Pwnator on April 27, 2011, 02:11:39 AM
No.HYBRIDS are a major zone.Combine a juggler with a clamp for instance.Clamps bots and damages away.

Yeah, go ahead and build one. Remember, it's DSL LW.
Title: Re: "Ultimate" Robot Challenge.
Post by: Squirrel_Monkey on April 27, 2011, 11:27:01 AM
OK, brainstorm wins. Who has any ideas?
Title: Re: "Ultimate" Robot Challenge.
Post by: Conraaa on April 27, 2011, 11:28:05 AM
Hammer Rammer?
Title: Re: "Ultimate" Robot Challenge.
Post by: Avalanche on April 27, 2011, 12:12:10 PM
Flipper Wammer!
Title: Re: "Ultimate" Robot Challenge.
Post by: GoldenFox93 on April 27, 2011, 12:13:47 PM
Heavily-armoured flying robot with rapid laser cannons and a multi-flamethrower exhaust underneath?
Title: Re: "Ultimate" Robot Challenge.
Post by: ty4er on April 27, 2011, 12:17:44 PM
A FLYING ROBOT.
THAT SHOOTS PINEAPPLES.
THAT INSTA-KILL ANYTHING.
WHILST FLYING.
 :gawe:
Title: Re: "Ultimate" Robot Challenge.
Post by: Squirrel_Monkey on April 27, 2011, 12:18:14 PM
DSL LW....
Title: Re: "Ultimate" Robot Challenge.
Post by: ty4er on April 27, 2011, 12:19:28 PM
DSL LW....
Make everything weigh 0.1 kg  :gawe:
MEGA ARMY OF FLYING PINEAPPLE SHOOTERS.

or we could make a rammer/clamp...
Title: Re: "Ultimate" Robot Challenge.
Post by: GoldenFox93 on April 27, 2011, 12:20:14 PM
DSL LW....
Daargh, does everything need to be DSL LW nowadays? Next thing we know, my computer is going to have to downgrade to 5mm Titanium to fit in more batteries and razors   :gawe:
Title: Re: "Ultimate" Robot Challenge.
Post by: Avalanche on April 27, 2011, 01:02:45 PM
HAHAHHA.
Title: Re: "Ultimate" Robot Challenge.
Post by: Scorpion on April 27, 2011, 01:26:06 PM
*looks at majority of other posts*
Sigh
Well, i'd say a popup, or a VS.
Maybe a flail shell spinner, but not sure how you'd really make an "ultimate" version of that.
Title: Re: "Ultimate" Robot Challenge.
Post by: GoldenFox93 on April 27, 2011, 01:39:33 PM
*looks at majority of other posts*
Sigh
Well, i'd say a popup, or a VS.
Maybe a flail shell spinner, but not sure how you'd really make an "ultimate" version of that.
Indeed...hence why I thought that a Futuristic, Heavily-armoured, Weapon-equipped Hovercraft would be a design to go with- the use of rapid gunfire could potentially destroy exposed opponents in seconds, flying renders popups, rammers and flippers harmless, and all but the tallest designs wouldn't be able to reach it- even still, it could be armoured in thick layers of spinner plates and 10mm Steel underneath.
Title: Re: "Ultimate" Robot Challenge.
Post by: Scorpion on April 27, 2011, 01:47:25 PM
*looks at majority of other posts*
Sigh
Well, i'd say a popup, or a VS.
Maybe a flail shell spinner, but not sure how you'd really make an "ultimate" version of that.
Indeed...hence why I thought that a Futuristic, Heavily-armoured, Weapon-equipped Hovercraft would be a design to go with- the use of rapid gunfire could potentially destroy exposed opponents in seconds, flying renders popups, rammers and flippers harmless, and all but the tallest designs wouldn't be able to reach it- even still, it could be armoured in thick layers of spinner plates and 10mm Steel underneath.
Yes dear, tell you what, you go off in the corner and do that, and let the big boys carry on with what they're doing ;P
Title: Re: "Ultimate" Robot Challenge.
Post by: NFX on April 28, 2011, 12:44:30 PM
My initial guess would be a popup. However, it's going to require good speed (to get under opponents), enough power (to last the match and have the BSG at full speed), plenty of armour on the front (to withstand spinners), enough weaponry to deal the damage (against particularly high armour), and an epic wedge(to get under everything). Since the last one's impossible to nail down, I don't know if this "Ultimate Bot" thing is strictly doable. But that would be my theory, anyway.
Title: Re: "Ultimate" Robot Challenge.
Post by: Scorpion on April 28, 2011, 01:02:04 PM
My initial guess would be a popup. However, it's going to require good speed (to get under opponents), enough power (to last the match and have the BSG at full speed), plenty of armour on the front (to withstand spinners), enough weaponry to deal the damage (against particularly high armour), and an epic wedge(to get under everything). Since the last one's impossible to nail down, I don't know if this "Ultimate Bot" thing is strictly doable. But that would be my theory, anyway.
It is, just build, test wedge, if not good enough, delete, remake the bot, repeat XD
Title: Re: "Ultimate" Robot Challenge.
Post by: GoldenFox93 on April 28, 2011, 01:22:01 PM
*looks at majority of other posts*
Sigh
Well, i'd say a popup, or a VS.
Maybe a flail shell spinner, but not sure how you'd really make an "ultimate" version of that.
Indeed...hence why I thought that a Futuristic, Heavily-armoured, Weapon-equipped Hovercraft would be a design to go with- the use of rapid gunfire could potentially destroy exposed opponents in seconds, flying renders popups, rammers and flippers harmless, and all but the tallest designs wouldn't be able to reach it- even still, it could be armoured in thick layers of spinner plates and 10mm Steel underneath.
Yes dear, tell you what, you go off in the corner and do that, and let the big boys carry on with what they're doing ;P
Who you calling small?  ;)
 
And you know, I might try it. May need some help with the cannons, though.
Title: Re: "Ultimate" Robot Challenge.
Post by: Scrap Daddy on April 28, 2011, 02:30:58 PM
in dsl? a popup for sure
Title: Re: "Ultimate" Robot Challenge.
Post by: NFX on April 28, 2011, 02:44:19 PM
I can't see a rammer being considered the ultimate bot. If you don't have a wedge, you're going to get your backside handed to you by anything that does, and if you do have a wedge, once you're overturned, you are absolutely screwed. And if you've built a rammer that isn't invertible, you need to fix that immediately.
Title: Re: "Ultimate" Robot Challenge.
Post by: martymidget on April 28, 2011, 04:32:38 PM
Its going to be a popup.


Yeah, its probably going to be a popup. If you were to say HW, I would say fat rat with even better wedges than it has now.
Title: Re: "Ultimate" Robot Challenge.
Post by: Squirrel_Monkey on April 29, 2011, 03:17:56 AM
The problem with popups are Flail SnS (yes they do work) and TRFBDs.
But looks like it shall win.
Title: Re: "Ultimate" Robot Challenge.
Post by: Clickbeetle on April 29, 2011, 07:54:12 PM
I don't know if you would class them under "crawlers", but if not, the ultimate bot should be a TRFBD.  It's impossible for gut-rippers to hit the chassis and it has enough weapons to threaten shell spinners too.


123's LW Big Wheel is a good candidate for the ultimate bot to start with IMO.


And a problem with the proposed system is that the bot type, once decided, will never change.  What if a popup is not the "ultimate" design?  Then you get an ultimate popup, not an ultimate bot.
Title: Re: "Ultimate" Robot Challenge.
Post by: Squirrel_Monkey on April 30, 2011, 01:29:19 PM
My Flail SnS easily beats 123's TRFBD, and outweapons most other bots. That was why it was my choice.
Title: Re: "Ultimate" Robot Challenge.
Post by: ty4er on April 30, 2011, 01:41:58 PM
My Flail SnS easily beats 123's TRFBD, and outweapons most other bots. That was why it was my choice.
any low sort of spinner can beat it.
With any TRFBD the wheels are a huge target
I just like mah rammers :3
Title: Re: "Ultimate" Robot Challenge.
Post by: Squirrel_Monkey on May 01, 2011, 05:43:28 AM
Popup wins the vote!
First decision, True or not True?
Title: Re: "Ultimate" Robot Challenge.
Post by: NFX on May 01, 2011, 06:47:08 AM
Well, if it's a true popup, then the weapons might not be moving quickly enough to cause enough damage. Personally, I'd say not true, but I'm not sure.
Title: Re: "Ultimate" Robot Challenge.
Post by: JoeBlo on May 01, 2011, 06:55:32 AM
dont true tend to work better against shell spinners ?
Title: Re: "Ultimate" Robot Challenge.
Post by: ty4er on May 01, 2011, 06:58:45 AM
I would say pop-ups were the unltimate bot mainly cuz i cant build 'em :D
Then again there isn't such a thing as an 'ultimate' bot without ultra cheating.
I'd say it was a TRFBD if only the wheels aren't such a big taget.


I guess i'll stay out of this now...
Title: Re: "Ultimate" Robot Challenge.
Post by: freeziez on May 01, 2011, 07:59:49 AM
Wow.

I'm the only person who voted for "not true" popup. :P
Title: Re: "Ultimate" Robot Challenge.
Post by: Squirrel_Monkey on May 07, 2011, 07:04:26 AM
5:4 to True popup.
Can people suggest drive/wheel combinations to use now?
Title: Re: "Ultimate" Robot Challenge.
Post by: NFX on May 07, 2011, 07:21:59 AM
DSL LW, I reckon probably some kind of Mags, normal kind if mounted externally for More HP, or TWM3R Drive motors if they're mounted internally, so they don't take up as much space. Wheels, I reckon either Hypnos, or Minis if weight becomes an issue.
Title: Re: "Ultimate" Robot Challenge.
Post by: freeziez on May 07, 2011, 09:18:23 AM
5:4 to True popup.
Can people suggest drive/wheel combinations to use now?

NPCF+Hypnos.

Just sayin'
Title: Re: "Ultimate" Robot Challenge.
Post by: madman3 on May 07, 2011, 10:56:39 AM
TRFBD can be very, very good if you make them wide and high enough, and very hard to take out with MWs that aren't specifically built to take them out.
Title: Re: "Ultimate" Robot Challenge.
Post by: Squirrel_Monkey on May 07, 2011, 11:06:45 AM
But TRFBD's get outweaponed easily.
Title: Re: "Ultimate" Robot Challenge.
Post by: NFX on May 07, 2011, 11:10:28 AM
5:4 to True popup.
Can people suggest drive/wheel combinations to use now?

NPCF+Hypnos.

Just sayin'

That's almost half the weight of the bot being used for the drivetrain. You'd have to seriously compromise the bot in other ways to get that. The "Ultimate" bot is supposed to be a balance between each of the three ODM aspects. If we pump too much weight into one of them, we lose a lot from the other two, especially with this being a lightweight robot.
Title: Re: "Ultimate" Robot Challenge.
Post by: madman3 on May 07, 2011, 11:23:43 AM
But TRFBD's get outweaponed easily.
Not on a HW, and on a MW it isn't crucial as said weapons aren't exposed by low flying razors; higher discs have less HP.

I'm not sure if you guys got the idea of the original TRFBD concept. It does not require huge speed; indeed, it was an idea to strip off top armour (usually just by flopping on top of things) and shell; one of my earliest (and worst, because I used a huge chassis before I adopted 123's DSL Bar wheel connectors) TRFBDs used only Piglets, and was still capable of slaughtering gut rippers. If you bear in mind how much weight could be spent of weapons, it could probably have the most weapons of any bot type other than shell spinners, which have plenty of space on top to attack.
Title: Re: "Ultimate" Robot Challenge.
Post by: freeziez on May 07, 2011, 11:25:07 AM
5:4 to True popup.
Can people suggest drive/wheel combinations to use now?

NPCF+Hypnos.

Just sayin'

That's almost half the weight of the bot being used for the drivetrain. You'd have to seriously compromise the bot in other ways to get that. The "Ultimate" bot is supposed to be a balance between each of the three ODM aspects. If we pump too much weight into one of them, we lose a lot from the other two, especially with this being a lightweight robot.

Wait, it's LW? O_o

Never mind...
Title: Re: "Ultimate" Robot Challenge.
Post by: NFX on May 07, 2011, 11:35:20 AM
Yeah, it mentioned it on the first post.

Going on a tangent here, but I'm still seriously skeptical there is such a thing as a "perfect" bot. It's defined as a bot that can win against any opponent in any arena. And it's the "any arena" that makes it impossible for me. Let's assume that you're fighting in an open arena with low walls, such as BBEANS or even Clawtop.

If the bot doesn't have a wedge, then it'll either be easily flipped OOTA if it's something like an HS or FSS against a well-armoured flipper or popup, and if it's a TRFBD, a VS will decimate it quite quickly.

If the bot does have a wedge, then you will be OOTA'd as soon as something gets underneath you. If you get overturned, your wedge becomes a HUGE hindrance, and makes it even easier for your opponent to get under you.

There's no such thing as a perfect bot, because there's no such thing as a perfect wedge. As long as the wedge was is still going on, then we'll never be able to build a "perfect" bot. And I think that's a good thing, we've still got the rock-paper-scissors effect going on. Different bot types have different pros and cons, so a HS might beat a VS, but lose to a Rammer.
Title: Re: "Ultimate" Robot Challenge.
Post by: Squirrel_Monkey on May 07, 2011, 11:40:56 AM
It's in the BBEANS V2 arena. I still believe in FSnSs
Title: Re: "Ultimate" Robot Challenge.
Post by: NFX on May 07, 2011, 11:45:14 AM
...I'm not entirely convinved myself. I'll keep going with this, though. =] TWM drive motors, I think with Minis.
Title: Re: "Ultimate" Robot Challenge.
Post by: Squirrel_Monkey on May 07, 2011, 11:49:38 AM
Poll will come later today.
Title: Re: "Ultimate" Robot Challenge.
Post by: ty4er on May 08, 2011, 08:44:14 AM
Hmm...
Could be a FSnS but i think a pop-up will do well.
Atleast well against FSnS...
I actually think it's a crawler for some reason.
It's in the BBEANS V2 arena.
FLIPPERFLIPPERFLIPPERFLIPPERFLIPPER

With good wedges of course