Author Topic: RA2 CHALLENGE THREAD - DISCUSSIONS  (Read 260834 times)

Offline Avalanche

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Re: RA2 CHALLENGE THREAD - DISCUSSIONS
« Reply #1800 on: September 30, 2017, 08:49:49 PM »
I think removing IRL title fights basically cripples this title. IRL is entirely possible to fight in, i mean, did you see any of my title defences recently? All of those were in DSL and they had many people watching and fighting, and they all happened in legitimate circumstances with legitimate competition. IRL, when you know that everybody is fighting with the intent to win, is a perfectly fine meta.

And the thing is that a "competitive" irl isn't just DSL-S because DSL-S is so detached from real robots it's frankly absurd (just look at Kurt's SHW from his title victory over DSC): jugglers, 6 mechavore vses, spinners with no support etc. are all impossible IRL, yet in DSL-S they are fair game.

Taking IRL seriously and using it as a legitimate meta should be fully allowed. If you're really scared over the champion holding the title hostage in this meta (and that's a non-issue personally) then make it so it can only be fought once every 4 months: if you fight the title in IRL, you have to then fight the next 3 months in other metas. Also, if over 60% of the challengers in the monthly bracket are not willing to do IRL matches, then the title will have to be fought in another meta.

Allows for IRL builders to actually be allowed to compete, keeps those who shudder at the mere thought of IRL builders wanting to properly compete happy, and siphons off IRL builders into other metas during the other 3 months that IRL can't be fought in.

Banning IRL title fights even when both challenger and champion want to is just wrong and shouldn't be a rule. Setting rules that prevent the champion from forcing the title to be fought in IRL may be necessary, but my rules from earlier in this post should cover and solve that.
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Offline Mr. AS

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Re: RA2 CHALLENGE THREAD - DISCUSSIONS
« Reply #1801 on: October 01, 2017, 02:34:48 AM »
Totally banning IRL titles is a frankly stupid idea that I refuse to stand for. it's the most popular meta for a reason.
Because it's easy to build. Nothing else to it.
So's stock IRL and nobody plays that.
It isn't nearly as easy to make a stock IRL bot as it is in DSL. Try both for yourself and tell me which is the more pleasant of the 2 to build in.
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Offline kix

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Re: RA2 CHALLENGE THREAD - DISCUSSIONS
« Reply #1802 on: October 01, 2017, 03:31:27 AM »
Someone fite me?
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Offline Jammy Dodger

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Re: RA2 CHALLENGE THREAD - DISCUSSIONS
« Reply #1803 on: October 01, 2017, 07:53:08 AM »
I think removing IRL title fights basically cripples this title. IRL is entirely possible to fight in, i mean, did you see any of my title defences recently? All of those were in DSL and they had many people watching and fighting, and they all happened in legitimate circumstances with legitimate competition. IRL, when you know that everybody is fighting with the intent to win, is a perfectly fine meta.

And the thing is that a "competitive" irl isn't just DSL-S because DSL-S is so detached from real robots it's frankly absurd (just look at Kurt's SHW from his title victory over DSC): jugglers, 6 mechavore vses, spinners with no support etc. are all impossible IRL, yet in DSL-S they are fair game.

Taking IRL seriously and using it as a legitimate meta should be fully allowed. If you're really scared over the champion holding the title hostage in this meta (and that's a non-issue personally) then make it so it can only be fought once every 4 months: if you fight the title in IRL, you have to then fight the next 3 months in other metas. Also, if over 60% of the challengers in the monthly bracket are not willing to do IRL matches, then the title will have to be fought in another meta.

Allows for IRL builders to actually be allowed to compete, keeps those who shudder at the mere thought of IRL builders wanting to properly compete happy, and siphons off IRL builders into other metas during the other 3 months that IRL can't be fought in.

Banning IRL title fights even when both challenger and champion want to is just wrong and shouldn't be a rule. Setting rules that prevent the champion from forcing the title to be fought in IRL may be necessary, but my rules from earlier in this post should cover and solve that.
irl is just dumb to have for challenge matches as challenge matches are for who has the better bot, while irl is for who has the best looking bot (despite a few bots being op but nice bots). DSL-S is just a better meta for challenge matches IMO
(also you only want irl as that's the only place you don't have to try <3)

Offline jdg37

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Re: RA2 CHALLENGE THREAD - DISCUSSIONS
« Reply #1804 on: October 01, 2017, 08:08:39 AM »
I think the best way to put it is: irl style is more tailored to display tournaments. Build style showcases meant to be some level of RG, RW or BB recreation/simulation.  I’m with most others in that irl isn’t really tailored to the proposed challenge system.  It could still continue to be popular for tournaments for the variety of bots it allows someone to make, but in most cases these aren’t “competitive.”

Offline Hoppin

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Re: RA2 CHALLENGE THREAD - DISCUSSIONS
« Reply #1805 on: October 01, 2017, 08:32:35 AM »
You could run a separate selection for IRL, I'd be pretty stupid to cut most of the people from entering as non of them really build other metas
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Re: RA2 CHALLENGE THREAD - DISCUSSIONS
« Reply #1806 on: October 01, 2017, 08:38:37 AM »
Stock, Ironforge and DSL-S are underappreciated, people are just way to scared.
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Offline Avalanche

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Re: RA2 CHALLENGE THREAD - DISCUSSIONS
« Reply #1807 on: October 01, 2017, 08:40:47 AM »
IRL building could easily be turned into competition. Just everyone acknowledge the fact that everyone is going to fight to win instead of solely making a cool bot and BAM, you have yourself IRL competitive. The problem with DSL-S is that it has hardly any basis in reality, but IRL has a standard for making robots that would work IRL. It's currently about making cool bots, but you can definitely make a sub-meta in the challenge board where the goal ISN'T to make cool bots, but is to make realistically functioning robots that compete to win and not to look cool. It's easy.
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Offline Sage

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Re: RA2 CHALLENGE THREAD - DISCUSSIONS
« Reply #1808 on: October 01, 2017, 11:47:37 AM »
IRL building could easily be turned into competition. Just everyone acknowledge the fact that everyone is going to fight to win instead of solely making a cool bot and BAM, you have yourself IRL competitive. The problem with DSL-S is that it has hardly any basis in reality, but IRL has a standard for making robots that would work IRL. It's currently about making cool bots, but you can definitely make a sub-meta in the challenge board where the goal ISN'T to make cool bots, but is to make realistically functioning robots that compete to win and not to look cool. It's easy.

No. The only thing IRL has going for it is that people like to make cool bots. What you're proposing is a dumbed-down version of DSL-S. The rules required for such a thing are either subjective, or someone has to create a literal novel to encapsulate them. Do you put a weight limit on weapons? Maybe a DP limit? How heavy does the chassis have to be? Can we use anything polycarbonate? Is there specific armor that needs to be used? Does the control board have to be placed centrally, with room around it for the "wiring"?

Just accept that we will not be using it for the Challenge Board Title and move on.
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Offline Gulden

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Re: RA2 CHALLENGE THREAD - DISCUSSIONS
« Reply #1809 on: October 01, 2017, 12:14:22 PM »
Let's just call it a hypothetical title.
People can still chase it down, but it's nothing official.

I support Avalanche's claims honestly, but if people will still be fighting him, this is a best of both worlds scenario.
I have several opinions.

Offline Badger

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Re: RA2 CHALLENGE THREAD - DISCUSSIONS
« Reply #1810 on: October 01, 2017, 12:18:20 PM »
To be honest I don't see why we can't just say that IRL isn't a core meta but it can be used for title/belt fights if BOTH the champ and challenger agree. That rule doesn't hurt anyone
also lol at most toxic guy around calling others out on this sh**
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Re: RA2 CHALLENGE THREAD - DISCUSSIONS
« Reply #1811 on: October 01, 2017, 12:26:20 PM »
To be honest I don't see why we can't just say that IRL isn't a core meta but it can be used for title/belt fights if BOTH the champ and challenger agree. That rule doesn't hurt anyone
Because that will just lead to the title getting held hostage. Someone will claim the title and then refuse to fight anyone unless they agree to an IRL match, which they'll enter some 'competitive IRL' sh**box into and keep the title locked down
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Offline Sage

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Re: RA2 CHALLENGE THREAD - DISCUSSIONS
« Reply #1812 on: October 01, 2017, 12:32:30 PM »
To be honest I don't see why we can't just say that IRL isn't a core meta but it can be used for title/belt fights if BOTH the champ and challenger agree. That rule doesn't hurt anyone

the problem is the format. champion decides the meta, everyone gets the chance to send a bot. if even 1 person doesn't want IRL, then your idea doesn't work anymore. This will happen 99% of the time, so it's easier just to do DSL/Stock/Ironforge instead.

In fact, I would enter every month and say I don't want IRL.
You got my vote for RA2 Wizard. Always and forever.

Offline Badger

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Re: RA2 CHALLENGE THREAD - DISCUSSIONS
« Reply #1813 on: October 01, 2017, 12:42:43 PM »
I still think that forcing a single meta for a whole month for a title, and only having one title, is really dumb.
also lol at most toxic guy around calling others out on this sh**
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Offline Avalanche

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Re: RA2 CHALLENGE THREAD - DISCUSSIONS
« Reply #1814 on: October 01, 2017, 01:40:28 PM »
To be honest I don't see why we can't just say that IRL isn't a core meta but it can be used for title/belt fights if BOTH the champ and challenger agree. That rule doesn't hurt anyone

the problem is the format. champion decides the meta, everyone gets the chance to send a bot. if even 1 person doesn't want IRL, then your idea doesn't work anymore. This will happen 99% of the time, so it's easier just to do DSL/Stock/Ironforge instead.

In fact, I would enter every month and say I don't want IRL.

I say do the bracket and if the eventual challenger and champion both agree on IRL at the start, then the actual defense happens in IRL, if they don't agree then the title defence happens in the meta used for the main bracket.
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Offline 090901

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Re: RA2 CHALLENGE THREAD - DISCUSSIONS
« Reply #1815 on: October 01, 2017, 02:15:59 PM »
I still think that forcing a single meta for a whole month for a title, and only having one title, is really dumb.
i don't get the first part of what your saying, the only thing the meta will be used for is the bracket/title fight. you can qualify for it by winning ANY challenge during the month for ANY meta, and once you win the challenge you can just send in your bot for the meta picked for that months challenge belt right away then. as for the 2nd part, nobody has cared about the titles until just recently from what appears for the reason of  trying to beat lra2/lra2 sh**talking about being DSL HW title champion, so i'm not sure why its dumb to replace 16 titles that nobody seems to care about (the fact half them havent even been claimed/fought over in over a year is proof of that) with an actual forum title is dumb. plus nobody is stopping you from keeping track of """unofficial""" titles on your own anyways.


I say do the bracket and if the eventual challenger and champion both agree on IRL at the start, then the actual defense happens in IRL, if they don't agree then the title defence happens in the meta used for the main bracket.
can you give me a good reason as to why people who have bots already built for a certain meta and probably rather skilled builders in stock/dsl/ironforge would just decide they would want to built new bots just to fight an dsl-irl fight. also i would like to know why you never had a problem with the idea 8 months ago when i first posted it an didn't include IRL in it and you said
+1 this should be implemented ASAP

as others said this basically just seems to be something you are only against, and i dont understand why you expect people to bend over backwards for your considering your reputation in this community and various other robotic communities 

Offline cephalopod

Re: RA2 CHALLENGE THREAD - DISCUSSIONS
« Reply #1816 on: October 01, 2017, 03:11:49 PM »
I'd just like to point out guys that since I last checked in on this conversation, I've been away from home an entire weekend spending time with loved ones. I'm sure you guys with, uh, very strong contrary opinions could've also found something better to do.
This is a situation literally 1 or 2 people disagree with, I don't know why time is being wasted discussing outlying opinions.
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Offline dragonsteincole

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Re: RA2 CHALLENGE THREAD - DISCUSSIONS
« Reply #1817 on: October 01, 2017, 03:12:38 PM »
I'm going to try and talk sense, or at least make some sensible suggestions here. Trying to collect together the good bits from this, so little of this may be a new idea, but one thats gotten lost in the mix here.

Challenge title:

- There is 1 Challenge Title. There is a rank associated with it, or even recycle the GTMCS champion rank for the month's champion.
- There are 4 metas (Stock, DSL-S, IF and Retooled), and 4 weightclasses (LW, MW, HW, SHW). No meta or weightclass can be repeated for consecutive months.
- The champion suggests a meta to Dragonfire, if it meets the above criteria, then it's announced at the beginning of the month. Dragonfire is also responsible for recording who is eligible for the Title throughout the month.
- Single-elimination bracket featuring whoever is eligible. KO or score wins, usual havok rules apply. Byes used in case of odd numbers. Winner meets the current champion in the final.
- There is a main fight host, and a backup host for recording the fights. 1 video to cover the whole tournament to prevent things dragging on into the next month and causing delays.
- The GTM Awards include awards for most challenge wins, most title fights, etc. Trying to build up stats and get records going.

IRL:

- IRL is not included for the title until at least it is defined what IRL-style is in context of challenge fights. I.e Use of Rule of 7 break, use of Component Freedom and Component Hermaphrodism, use of hinged wedges, limits on the amount of bursts for weapons, and any other contentious issues.
- IRL challenges are allowed to trial these guidelines. If after a trial period the guidelines are seen as successful, IRL can be added to the rotation of metas. If not then it remains challenge-only and the guidelines tweaked further.
- People can use IRL bots in DSL-S challenges as long as they meet DSL-S rules. Will probably be a bad idea to do so but if the bot meets the rules there's no reason to not accept it.

Offline Badnik96

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Re: RA2 CHALLENGE THREAD - DISCUSSIONS
« Reply #1818 on: October 01, 2017, 03:34:50 PM »
You could run a separate selection for IRL, I'd be pretty stupid to cut most of the people from entering as non of them really build other metas

nothing's stopping you or anyone else from starting. that's what i like about this, it makes people learn new metas instead of just sticking to irl, and we desperately need new faces in stock and ironforge. have you seen the last couple of stock tournaments? entry lists are ****ing dismal.

Offline Dreamcast

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Re: RA2 CHALLENGE THREAD - DISCUSSIONS
« Reply #1819 on: October 01, 2017, 04:16:41 PM »
it makes people learn new metas instead of just sticking to irl,

shhhh, most apologists don't want that.